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Komentarz jest taki. Nikt z nas nie jest doskonały i choć do doskonałości jesteśmy powołani, nigdy jej nie osiągniemy. To co nas [nie tylko dyskutantów tutaj, ale ludzi w ogólności] różni, to fakt, co określimy jako zbyt wielkie wyrzeczenie a co określimy, jako rzeczy jak najbardziej w naszym zasięgu. Ja staram się argumentować, że w przeciwieństwie do rozdania całego majątku i stania się świętym pustyni, w zasięgu każdego z nas jest dokonanie takiego "wyrzeczenia", jakim jest zrezygnowanie z mięsa. I nawet mniej radykalny postulat przedstawiony przez SweetChild'a jest niepomiernie większym wyrzeczeniem. Łączy się ze znacznym obiektywnym obniżeniem poziomu włansego życia, czego wegetarianizm nie powoduje.

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Właśnie. Zwyczajnym śmiertelnikom pozostaje niekonsekwencja

Tak, ale nie znaczy to, że wielkość owej niekonsekwencji nie ma znaczenia, gdyż inaczej zmuszeni bylibyśmy do usprawiedliwienia absolutnie wszystkiego.
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Z tym że w przypadku zwierzęcia uważam, że zło tortur jest zdecydowanie większe niż zło odebrania życia.

Dlaczego? Możesz uzasadnić? Aha, wciąż stajemy przed wracającą niczym bumerang kwestią, że zła, którego możemy nie wyrządzać w ogóle [bez wielkich wyrzeczeń i obiektywnego, sporego obniżenia poziomu własnego życia] wyrządzać nie powinniśmy.

Uffff, to ja teraz idę na spacer i będę zaklinał deszcz.
Ktoś ma jakieś sugestie, gdzie powinno popadać? ;-)


Wt maja 29, 2007 15:23
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Dołączył(a): N maja 06, 2007 20:29
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Przestalam jeść mięso po obejrzeniu filmu, który przedstawiał w jaki sposób odbywa się rzeż zwierząt i jaak one cierpią. Jem ryby dlatego ponieważ uważam ze one nie odczuwają cierpienia ani go nie przeczuwają.

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ścieżek swoich naucz mnie !"
Psalm 25,4


Wt maja 29, 2007 15:26
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Dołączył(a): Cz cze 09, 2005 16:37
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JakubN napisał(a):
Tak, ale nie znaczy to, że wielkość owej niekonsekwencji nie ma znaczenia, gdyż inaczej zmuszeni bylibyśmy do usprawiedliwienia absolutnie wszystkiego.


Tu się zgadzam, chodziło mi jedynie o wykazanie, że niezerowa niekonsekwencja jest wpisana w nasze życie (przynajmniej w przypadku zdecydowanej większości z nas).

JakubN napisał(a):
Dlaczego? Możesz uzasadnić? Aha, wciąż stajemy przed wracającą niczym bumerang kwestią, że zła, którego możemy nie wyrządzać w ogóle [bez wielkich wyrzeczeń i obiektywnego, sporego obniżenia poziomu własnego życia] wyrządzać nie powinniśmy.


Nie, tutaj pomijam kwestię, na ile możemy w ogóle nie zabijać. Po prostu uważam, że zabicie zwierzęcia w sposób humanitarny jest nieporównanie mniejszym złem niż jego torturowanie. Chyba na tej zasadzie np. usypia się psa.


Wt maja 29, 2007 15:58
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AniaF napisał(a):
Przestalam jeść mięso po obejrzeniu filmu, który przedstawiał w jaki sposób odbywa się rzeż zwierząt i jaak one cierpią. Jem ryby dlatego ponieważ uważam ze one nie odczuwają cierpienia ani go nie przeczuwają.

Niestety, Aniu, jest inaczej, co pokazują wyniki badań drukowane od jakiegoś czasu. Proszę, przeczytaj to co jest poniżej, bo to naprawdę ważne, a może zmienisz zdanie [i sposób podejścia do ryb]. Tutaj kilka tylko faktów:

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Ryby czują ból

Brytyjscy naukowcy stwierdzili, że ryby, podobnie jak ssaki i ptaki, są zdolne do odczuwania bólu. Naukowcy z Roslin Institute w Edynburgu zidentyfikowali w organiźmie pstrąga receptory bólu. Badano także reakcje organizmu ryb na szkodliwe substancje.

Jak powiedziała kierująca zespołem Dr Lynne Sneddon, pstrągi poddawane działaniu szkodliwych substancji "przejawiały poważne zaburzenia behawioralne i fizjologiczne, porównywalne z tymi, jakie występują w podobnych sytuacjach u wyższych ssaków".

Ryby wyraźnie reagowały też na bodźce kojarzone z bólem.

Badania wykazały obecność 58 receptorów w okolicach łba pstrąga, z których 22 to receptory reagujące na mechaniczne i termiczne uszkodzenia ciała. 18 receptorów reagowało na bodźce chemiczne. Dotychczas uważano, że ryby nie posiadają tego rodzaju receptorów chemicznych. Kolejnym zaskoczeniem było, że receptory reagujące na mechaniczne uszkodzenia skóry okazały się bardziej wrażliwe niż na przykład u człowieka. Naukowcy tłumaczą to tym, że skóra ryby łatwiej ulega zniszczeniu.

Ale sama obecność receptorów nie jest dostatecznym dowodem na to, że badane osobniki rzeczywiście odczuwają ból. Aby to stwierdzić należy udowodnić zmianę zachowania związaną z bodźcami, które mają wywoływać ból i wskazującą na to, że wywołana reakcja nie jest wyłącznie odruchowa.

Aby to stwierdzić naukowcy z Edynburga wstrzyknęli jad pszczeli i kwas octowy do organizmu jednej grupy badanych ryb, a drugiej grupie kontrolnej podano w ten sam sposób substancje obojętne.

Obie grupy znajdowały się później w tym samym akwarium. W zachowaniu pierwszej grupy stwierdzono wyraźne anomalie.

"U ryb z pierwszej grupy zaobserwowaliśmy ruchy przypominające "kiwanie się" charakterystyczne dla będących w stressie ssaków wyższego rzędu" - mówi dr Sneddon. "Ryby, którym wstrzyknięto kwas ocierały się o dno i ściany akwarium: nie są to reakcje odruchowe."


Tutaj fragment artykułu z portalu vegetarianie.pl:


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Karpie należą do grupy ryb zwanej kościstymi (Teleostei), która powstała w późnym triasie, prawie równocześnie ze ssakami, i pod względem rozwoju układu nerkowego, zwłaszcza mózgu i złożoności motywowanych, tzn. zachodzących z udziałem wiadomości (a nie zaprogramowanych) zachowań, jest porównywalna z niektórymi ssakami.

Ryby dzielą z nami podstawowe elementy systemu motywacyjnego, który ewolucyjnie jest źródłem wszelkich doznań pozytywnych i negatywnych. Ryby mają w mózgu tzw. układ nagrody, który generuje pozytywne doznania i który funkcjonuje przy udziale dopaminy - dzięki temu podobna do dopaminy amfetamina powoduje przyjemne doznania u nas i najwyraźniej u ryb, które wykonują różne zadania, aby ją dostać.

Ryby mają te same zakończenia bólowe (A i C) co ssaki i odczuwają ból, co eksperymentalnie udowodnili naukowcy ze znanego szkockiego Instytutu Roślin (w którym sklonowano owcę Dolly). Na przykład ryby, którym wstrzyknięto substancję drażniącą pod skórę szczęk, unikają pobierania pokarmu. W mózgu ryb działają opioidy, dlatego morfina uśmierza ból również u ryb.

Ryby mają odpowiednik ciała migdałowatego i odczuwają strach, który hamowany jest benzodiazepinami (substancje czynne środków uspokajających). Ból, strach i inne negatywne doznania, od których nie można się uwolnić, powodują stres, który u ryb przejawia się tak samo jak u innych kręgowców, tzn. wydzielaniem hormonów rdzenia nadnerczy (adrenaliny, noradrenaliny) i kory nadnerczy (kortykosteroidów), a także utratą wagi ciała (co przy 20-25 tys. ton karpi sprzedawanych na jedne święta oznacza wymierne straty finansowe).




To ja już uciekam, bo póki co deszczu wciąż nie ma [pewnie dlatego, że wciąż siedzę w domu]... ;-)


Wt maja 29, 2007 16:50
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Dołączył(a): Pt maja 25, 2007 7:47
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Dla katolików jest jasne, że zwierzęta żyją po to, by służyć człowiekowi, który ma "czynić sobie ziemię poddaną". Bezcelowe znęcanie jest oczywiście wykluczone, ale zabicie w celu spożycia, to normalna sprawa.


Wt maja 29, 2007 18:49
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Dołączył(a): Śr maja 09, 2007 7:24
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Tak, a dla Amerykanów kiedyś było jasne, że czarni są po to aby służyć białym, bo przecież ci pierwsi nie są w pełni ludźmi. Dla nich niewolnicze wykorzystywanie czarnych i nie dawanie im praw człowieka to też była normalna sprawa.


Wt maja 29, 2007 20:20
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...którą to odpowiedzią Zencognito uprzedziłeś moją ripostę i odesłanie Paladyna do wcześniejszych postów, gdzie już była na ten temat mowa. Dziękuję. :-D


Wt maja 29, 2007 22:03
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Aha, żeby nie było, że chrześcijaństwo nie dba zupełnie o los zwierząt, oto opinia, było nie było, człowieka znaczącego. ;-)

Obrazek


Cz maja 31, 2007 22:05
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Dołączył(a): Cz sty 05, 2006 12:24
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Jakubie, twoje poglądy są nie do pogodzenia z chrześcijańską wizją świata i człowieka. Zgodnie z Biblią to człowiek jest istotą wyjątkową, którą Bóg stworzył na swój obraz i podobieństwo. Ponadto Bóg powiedział do Noego i jego bliskich: "Bądźcie płodni i mnóżcie się, abyście zaludnili ziemię. 2 Wszelkie zaś zwierzę na ziemi i wszelkie ptactwo powietrzne niechaj się was boi i lęka. Wszystko, co się porusza na ziemi i wszystkie ryby morskie zostały oddane wam we władanie. 3 Wszystko, co się porusza i żyje, jest przeznaczone dla was na pokarm, tak jak rośliny zielone, daję wam wszystko" (Rdz 9, 1-3). Takich przykładów w Biblii jest wiele. Tak więc stawiana przez ciebie teza, że być może KK za parędziesiąt lat zmieni zdanie i uzna samo jedzenie mięsa za grzech mogła by się spełnić tylko wtedy gdyby Kościół odrzucił prawdziwość Pisma Świętego.

JakubN napisał(a):
"Wyzwolenie zwierząt" Petera Singera - najlepsza i najbardziej obiektywna książka poświęcona stosunkowi człowieka do zwierząt. Tak od strony filozoficznej, jak i faktograficznej. Zwana często, nie bez pewnej słuszności, Biblią miłośników zwierząt. Polecam i zachęcam do kupienia najlepiej, bo to pozycja do której wraca się często i zakreśla gęsto. WARTO MIEĆ!!! Szczególnie etyczne argumenty Singera są trafne...
http://www.piw.pl/sklep/product_info.ph ... cts_id=187


Akurat Peter Singer to przykład osoby dokonującej totalnej dekonstrukcji godności człowieka. Popiera prawo rodziców do zabijania swoich niemowląt, które dla niego są zbyt prymitywnymi organizmami, żeby zasługiwały na ochronę prawną. Co więcej jest zagorzałym zwolennikiem zrównania praw zwierząt i człowieka pod każdym względem i popiera legalizację "małżeństw" między zwierzętami, a ludźmi oraz kierowania się w życiu społecznym zasadą darwinizmu społecznego. Dlatego teoria "szowinizmu gatunkowego" opracowana przez Singera to tak naprawdę bardziej próba zezwierzęcenia człowieka niż uczłowieczenia zwierząt i jeden z objawów dominującego we współczesnej filozofii nurtu scjentystycznego, który nie bierze pod uwagę istnienia duszy ludzkiej i odrzuca, kluczowe dla naszej cywilizacji, dokonania personalistycznych humanistów oraz egzystencjalistów uznających transcendentalny wymiar osoby ludzkiej.

_________________
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Pt cze 01, 2007 12:17
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Paschalis napisał(a):
Jakubie, twoje poglądy są nie do pogodzenia z chrześcijańską wizją świata i człowieka.

Ależ są, jak najbardziej. Nie wierzysz? Pogadaj w dobrym teologiem moralności. Ja robiłem to kilkukrotnie, i jakoś nigdy nie słyszałem, żeby mój pogląd był sprzeczny [zaznaczam sprzeczny, a nie niezogodny z powszechną praktyką, bo to słyszałem często ;-) ] z chrześcijańską wizją świata.
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Zgodnie z Biblią to człowiek jest istotą wyjątkową, którą Bóg stworzył na swój obraz i podobieństwo.

To, że człowiek jest istotą wyjątkową, to akurat można empirycznie stwierdzić, ale naprawdę nic z tego nie wynika. Nie w kwestii traktowania zwierząt na pewno. Jak powiedział Dietrich Bonhoeffer, GABE IST ANGABE - dar stanowi powinność. I to jak najbardziej chrześcijańskie podejście. Jaką powinnośc względem zwierząt popełnia się, kiedy zabija się je na pożywienie bez absolutnej konieczności? Nie wiem, zaprawdę trudno mi tu znaleźć sens.
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"Bądźcie płodni i mnóżcie się, abyście zaludnili ziemię. 2 Wszelkie zaś zwierzę na ziemi i wszelkie ptactwo powietrzne niechaj się was boi i lęka. Wszystko, co się porusza na ziemi i wszystkie ryby morskie zostały oddane wam we władanie. 3 Wszystko, co się porusza i żyje, jest przeznaczone dla was na pokarm, tak jak rośliny zielone, daję wam wszystko" (Rdz 9, 1-3).

Z tym fragmentem jest jeden problem. Jak mówi mój rektor, prof. dr hab. Jacek Bolewski SJ, było to czasowe zezwolenie spowodowane ekstremalną sytuacją, w jakiej znalazła się ludzkość.
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Takich przykładów w Biblii jest wiele. Tak więc stawiana przez ciebie teza, że być może KK za parędziesiąt lat zmieni zdanie i uzna samo jedzenie mięsa za grzech mogła by się spełnić tylko wtedy gdyby Kościół odrzucił prawdziwość Pisma Świętego.

Mój drogi Paschalisie, uważam to za absolutnie nieuprawnione stwierdzenie. Już wyjaśniam dlaczego. Po pierwsze, w tej samej Księdze Rodzaju, w pierwszym rozdziale w wersecie 29 mamy:
29 I rzekł Bóg: «Oto wam daję wszelką roślinę przynoszącą ziarno po całej ziemi i wszelkie drzewo, którego owoc ma w sobie nasienie: dla was będą one pokarmem.
później zaś, na końcu rozdziału znamienne słowa:
31 A Bóg widział, że wszystko, co uczynił, było bardzo dobre.
Jest to więc stan pierwotnej doskonałości, do którego należy dążyć. Jest to stan, do którego restytuowania dąży cała historia zbawienia. Jest to stan, który przywrócony zostanie w pełni w chwilą wypełnienia się Królestwa Bożego. A relizowanie zamysłu Królestwa Bożego w takim wymiarze, w jakim to jest możliwe jest jednym z obowiązków każdego chrześcijanina. I jeśli powiesz teraz, że niejedzenie mięsa jest niezgodne z chrześcijaństwem, to narazisz się na obrazę stanu owej pierwotnej doskonałości i szczęśliwości, którą stworzył Bóg u zaraznia dziejów i którą opisuje Pismo Święte w Księdze Rodzaju.
Po drugie, jest wiele fragmentów z PŚ na które i Ty i ja możemy się powołać, ale ich interpretacja zależy od świadomości poznawczej każdego z nas, a te są diametralnie różne, więc może lepiej spojrzeć na ogólną wymowę PŚ. Tutaj, czeog bardzo bym chciał, obyśmy znaleźli płaszczyznę porozumienia.
:arrow: Chrześciaństwo jest religią miłości. Miłość nie licuje, w moim przynajmniej rozumieniu, z celowym zabijaniem.
:arrow: Chrześcijaństwo jest religią pokoju.
Błogosławieni, którzy wprowadzają pokój, albowiem oni będą nazwani synami Bożymi. [Mt 5, 9] Pokój odnosi się nie tylko do ludzi, ale do całego stworzenia, bo w stanie pierwotnej doskonałości pokój istniał w całym stworzeniu. Zabijanie zwierząt przeznaczanych na mięso jest, z moim rozumieniu, niczym innym, tylko permanentną wojną z nimi prowadzoną.
Na razie poprzestanę na tym.
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Akurat Peter Singer to przykład osoby dokonującej totalnej dekonstrukcji godności człowieka.

Przepraszam, ale personalny atak na Singera uważam za niegodne i niewłaściwe.
Po pierwsze, żeby się o czymś wypowiadać, trzeba to znać. Ja czytałem książki Singera, a Ty? Ile z nich przeczytałeś?
Po drugie, to że ktoś nie zgadza się z Twoim sposobem widzenia świata, wcale nie oznacza, że nie potrafi logicznie myśleć i sensownie agrumentować słuszność swoich wypowiedzi.
Po trzecie, robienie z Singera mordercy niewiniątek i dusiciela dzieci w kołyskach jest śmieszne i wynika z nieznajomości jego dzieł lub cytowania niektórych wypowiedzi w oderwaniu od kontekstu.
Po czwarte, jeśli uważasz, że Singera działania zmierzają do zniżenia człowieka do zwierzęcia a nie na odwrót, to polecam deklarację Great Ape Project, którego Singer jest założycielem i działaczem:
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We demand the extension of the community of equals to include all great apes: human beings, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orang-utans.

The community of equals is the moral community within which we accept certain basic moral principles or rights as governing our relations with each other and enforceable at law. Among these principles or rights are the following:


1. The Right to Life
The lives of members of the community of equals are to be protected. Members of the community of equals may not be killed except in very strictly defined circumstances, for example, self-defense.

2. The Protection of Individual Liberty
Members of the community of equals are not to be arbitrarily deprived of their liberty; if they should be imprisoned without due legal process, they have the right to immediate release. The detention of those who havenot been convicted of any crime, or of those who are not criminally liable, should be allowed only where it can be shown to be for their own good, or necessary to protect the public from a member of the community who wouldclearly be a danger to others if at liberty. In such cases, members of the community of equals must have the right to appeal, either directly or, if they lack the relevant capacity, through an advocate, to a judicial tribunal.

3. The Prohibition of Torture
The deliberate infliction of severe pain on a member of the community of equals, either wantonly or for an alleged benefit to others, is regarded as torture, and is wrong.

Co ciekawe, z powyższych słów można wnioskować całkiem trafnie o stosunku Singera do istot ludzkich.
Po piąte, łatwo jest krytykować kogoś, kiedy nic się o nim nie wie i ma się z góry wyrobiony na jego temat pogląd. Otóż jeśli mówisz, że ktoś dekonstruuje ludzką godność, to trochę to dziwne, że ten sam człowiek od wielu lat przeznacza 25% swojego majątku na cele charytatywne [UNICEF i OXFAM]. Ile Ty przeznaczasz każdego miesiąca na takowe cele? Więc może trochę pokory z ocenianiu ludzi, dobrze?
Po szóste, zależy Ci na poszukiwaniu prawdy [a wierzę, że tak jest] to może sięgnij po coś, co Singer napisał i na podstawie tego wyróc sobie osąd człowieka. Zacznij od tego, a potem pomyśl, że gdybym w innym dziale wkleił ten esej podpisując go imieniem Jana Pawła II, mało kto by się zorientował. Oto rzeczony esej, przeznacz na niego te 20 minut, warto! A potem możesz napisać o wrażeniech tutaj. Tylko proszę Cię o obiektywyzm, bo prawda jest znacznie cenniejsza od zwycięstwa w dyskusji.
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Famine, Affluence, and Morality
Peter Singer


Philosophy and Public Affairs, vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1972), pp. 229-243 [revised edition]
As I write this, in November 1971, people are dying in East Bengal from lack of food, shelter, and medical care. The suffering and death that are occurring there now are not inevitable, not unavoidable in any fatalistic sense of the term. Constant poverty, a cyclone, and a civil war have turned at least nine million people into destitute refugees; nevertheless, it is not beyond the capacity of the richer nations to give enough assistance to reduce any further suffering to very small proportions. The decisions and actions of human beings can prevent this kind of suffering. Unfortunately, human beings have not made the necessary decisions. At the individual level, people have, with very few exceptions, not responded to the situation in any significant way. Generally speaking, people have not given large sums to relief funds; they have not written to their parliamentary representatives demanding increased government assistance; they have not demonstrated in the streets, held symbolic fasts, or done anything else directed toward providing the refugees with the means to satisfy their essential needs. At the government level, no government has given the sort of massive aid that would enable the refugees to survive for more than a few days. Britain, for instance, has given rather more than most countries. It has, to date, given £14,750,000. For comparative purposes, Britain's share of the nonrecoverable development costs of the Anglo-French Concorde project is already in excess of £275,000,000, and on present estimates will reach £440,000,000. The implication is that the British government values a supersonic transport more than thirty times as highly as it values the lives of the nine million refugees. Australia is another country which, on a per capita basis, is well up in the "aid to Bengal" table. Australia's aid, however, amounts to less than one-twelfth of the cost of Sydney's new opera house. The total amount given, from all sources, now stands at about £65,000,000. The estimated cost of keeping the refugees alive for one year is £464,000,000. Most of the refugees have now been in the camps for more than six months. The World Bank has said that India needs a minimum of £300,000,000 in assistance from other countries before the end of the year. It seems obvious that assistance on this scale will not be forthcoming. India will be forced to choose between letting the refugees starve or diverting funds from her own development program, which will mean that more of her own people will starve in the future. [1]

These are the essential facts about the present situation in Bengal. So far as it concerns us here, there is nothing unique about this situation except its magnitude. The Bengal emergency is just the latest and most acute of a series of major emergencies in various parts of the world, arising both from natural and from manmade causes. There are also many parts of the world in which people die from malnutrition and lack of food independent of any special emergency. I take Bengal as my example only because it is the present concern, and because the size of the problem has ensured that it has been given adequate publicity. Neither individuals nor governments can claim to be unaware of what is happening there.

What are the moral implications of a situation like this? In what follows, I shall argue that the way people in relatively affluent countries react to a situation like that in Bengal cannot be justified; indeed, the whole way we look at moral issues - our moral conceptual scheme - needs to be altered, and with it, the way of life that has come to be taken for granted in our society.

In arguing for this conclusion I will not, of course, claim to be morally neutral. I shall, however, try to argue for the moral position that I take, so that anyone who accepts certain assumptions, to be made explicit, will, I hope, accept my conclusion.



I begin with the assumption that suffering and death from lack of food, shelter, and medical care are bad. I think most people will agree about this, although one may reach the same view by different routes. I shall not argue for this view. People can hold all sorts of eccentric positions, and perhaps from some of them it would not follow that death by starvation is in itself bad. It is difficult, perhaps impossible, to refute such positions, and so for brevity I will henceforth take this assumption as accepted. Those who disagree need read no further.

My next point is this: if it is in our power to prevent something bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance, we ought, morally, to do it. By "without sacrificing anything of comparable moral importance" I mean without causing anything else comparably bad to happen, or doing something that is wrong in itself, or failing to promote some moral good, comparable in significance to the bad thing that we can prevent. This principle seems almost as uncontroversial as the last one. It requires us only to prevent what is bad, and to promote what is good, and it requires this of us only when we can do it without sacrificing anything that is, from the moral point of view, comparably important. I could even, as far as the application of my argument to the Bengal emergency is concerned, qualify the point so as to make it: if it is in our power to prevent something very bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything morally significant, we ought, morally, to do it. An application of this principle would be as follows: if I am walking past a shallow pond and see a child drowning in it, I ought to wade in and pull the child out. This will mean getting my clothes muddy, but this is insignificant, while the death of the child would presumably be a very bad thing.

The uncontroversial appearance of the principle just stated is deceptive. If it were acted upon, even in its qualified form, our lives, our society, and our world would be fundamentally changed. For the principle takes, firstly, no account of proximity or distance. It makes no moral difference whether the person I can help is a neighbor's child ten yards from me or a Bengali whose name I shall never know, ten thousand miles away. Secondly, the principle makes no distinction between cases in which I am the only person who could possibly do anything and cases in which I am just one among millions in the same position.

I do not think I need to say much in defense of the refusal to take proximity and distance into account. The fact that a person is physically near to us, so that we have personal contact with him, may make it more likely that we shall assist him, but this does not show that we ought to help him rather than another who happens to be further away. If we accept any principle of impartiality, universalizability, equality, or whatever, we cannot discriminate against someone merely because he is far away from us (or we are far away from him). Admittedly, it is possible that we are in a better position to judge what needs to be done to help a person near to us than one far away, and perhaps also to provide the assistance we judge to be necessary. If this were the case, it would be a reason for helping those near to us first. This may once have been a justification for being more concerned with the poor in one's town than with famine victims in India. Unfortunately for those who like to keep their moral responsibilities limited, instant communication and swift transportation have changed the situation. From the moral point of view, the development of the world into a "global village" has made an important, though still unrecognized, difference to our moral situation. Expert observers and supervisors, sent out by famine relief organizations or permanently stationed in famine-prone areas, can direct our aid to a refugee in Bengal almost as effectively as we could get it to someone in our own block. There would seem, therefore, to be no possible justification for discriminating on geographical grounds.

There may be a greater need to defend the second implication of my principle - that the fact that there are millions of other people in the same position, in respect to the Bengali refugees, as I am, does not make the situation significantly different from a situation in which I am the only person who can prevent something very bad from occurring. Again, of course, I admit that there is a psychological difference between the cases; one feels less guilty about doing nothing if one can point to others, similarly placed, who have also done nothing. Yet this can make no real difference to our moral obligations. [2] Should I consider that I am less obliged to pull the drowning child out of the pond if on looking around I see other people, no further away than I am, who have also noticed the child but are doing nothing? One has only to ask this question to see the absurdity of the view that numbers lessen obligation. It is a view that is an ideal excuse for inactivity; unfortunately most of the major evils - poverty, overpopulation, pollution - are problems in which everyone is almost equally involved.

The view that numbers do make a difference can be made plausible if stated in this way: if everyone in circumstances like mine gave £5 to the Bengal Relief Fund, there would be enough to provide food, shelter, and medical care for the refugees; there is no reason why I should give more than anyone else in the same circumstances as I am; therefore I have no obligation to give more than £5. Each premise in this argument is true, and the argument looks sound. It may convince us, unless we notice that it is based on a hypothetical premise, although the conclusion is not stated hypothetically. The argument would be sound if the conclusion were: if everyone in circumstances like mine were to give £5, I would have no obligation to give more than £5. If the conclusion were so stated, however, it would be obvious that the argument has no bearing on a situation in which it is not the case that everyone else gives £5. This, of course, is the actual situation. It is more or less certain that not everyone in circumstances like mine will give £5. So there will not be enough to provide the needed food, shelter, and medical care. Therefore by giving more than £5 I will prevent more suffering than I would if I gave just £5.

It might be thought that this argument has an absurd consequence. Since the situation appears to be that very few people are likely to give substantial amounts, it follows that I and everyone else in similar circumstances ought to give as much as possible, that is, at least up to the point at which by giving more one would begin to cause serious suffering for oneself and one's dependents - perhaps even beyond this point to the point of marginal utility, at which by giving more one would cause oneself and one's dependents as much suffering as one would prevent in Bengal. If everyone does this, however, there will be more than can be used for the benefit of the refugees, and some of the sacrifice will have been unnecessary. Thus, if everyone does what he ought to do, the result will not be as good as it would be if everyone did a little less than he ought to do, or if only some do all that they ought to do.

The paradox here arises only if we assume that the actions in question - sending money to the relief funds - are performed more or less simultaneously, and are also unexpected. For if it is to be expected that everyone is going to contribute something, then clearly each is not obliged to give as much as he would have been obliged to had others not been giving too. And if everyone is not acting more or less simultaneously, then those giving later will know how much more is needed, and will have no obligation to give more than is necessary to reach this amount. To say this is not to deny the principle that people in the same circumstances have the same obligations, but to point out that the fact that others have given, or may be expected to give, is a relevant circumstance: those giving after it has become known that many others are giving and those giving before are not in the same circumstances. So the seemingly absurd consequence of the principle I have put forward can occur only if people are in error about the actual circumstances - that is, if they think they are giving when others are not, but in fact they are giving when others are. The result of everyone doing what he really ought to do cannot be worse than the result of everyone doing less than he ought to do, although the result of everyone doing what he reasonably believes he ought to do could be.

If my argument so far has been sound, neither our distance from a preventable evil nor the number of other people who, in respect to that evil, are in the same situation as we are, lessens our obligation to mitigate or prevent that evil. I shall therefore take as established the principle I asserted earlier. As I have already said, I need to assert it only in its qualified form: if it is in our power to prevent something very bad from happening, without thereby sacrificing anything else morally significant, we ought, morally, to do it.

The outcome of this argument is that our traditional moral categories are upset. The traditional distinction between duty and charity cannot be drawn, or at least, not in the place we normally draw it. Giving money to the Bengal Relief Fund is regarded as an act of charity in our society. The bodies which collect money are known as "charities." These organizations see themselves in this way - if you send them a check, you will be thanked for your "generosity." Because giving money is regarded as an act of charity, it is not thought that there is anything wrong with not giving. The charitable man may be praised, but the man who is not charitable is not condemned. People do not feel in any way ashamed or guilty about spending money on new clothes or a new car instead of giving it to famine relief. (Indeed, the alternative does not occur to them.) This way of looking at the matter cannot be justified. When we buy new clothes not to keep ourselves warm but to look "well-dressed" we are not providing for any important need. We would not be sacrificing anything significant if we were to continue to wear our old clothes, and give the money to famine relief. By doing so, we would be preventing another person from starving. It follows from what I have said earlier that we ought to give money away, rather than spend it on clothes which we do not need to keep us warm. To do so is not charitable, or generous. Nor is it the kind of act which philosophers and theologians have called "supererogatory" - an act which it would be good to do, but not wrong not to do. On the contrary, we ought to give the money away, and it is wrong not to do so.

I am not maintaining that there are no acts which are charitable, or that there are no acts which it would be good to do but not wrong not to do. It may be possible to redraw the distinction between duty and charity in some other place. All I am arguing here is that the present way of drawing the distinction, which makes it an act of charity for a man living at the level of affluence which most people in the "developed nations" enjoy to give money to save someone else from starvation, cannot be supported. It is beyond the scope of my argument to consider whether the distinction should be redrawn or abolished altogether. There would be many other possible ways of drawing the distinction - for instance, one might decide that it is good to make other people as happy as possible, but not wrong not to do so.

Despite the limited nature of the revision in our moral conceptual scheme which I am proposing, the revision would, given the extent of both affluence and famine in the world today, have radical implications. These implications may lead to further objections, distinct from those I have already considered. I shall discuss two of these.

One objection to the position I have taken might be simply that it is too drastic a revision of our moral scheme. People do not ordinarily judge in the way I have suggested they should. Most people reserve their moral condemnation for those who violate some moral norm, such as the norm against taking another person's property. They do not condemn those who indulge in luxury instead of giving to famine relief. But given that I did not set out to present a morally neutral description of the way people make moral judgments, the way people do in fact judge has nothing to do with the validity of my conclusion. My conclusion follows from the principle which I advanced earlier, and unless that principle is rejected, or the arguments are shown to be unsound, I think the conclusion must stand, however strange it appears. It might, nevertheless, be interesting to consider why our society, and most other societies, do judge differently from the way I have suggested they should. In a wellknown article, J. O. Urmson suggests that the imperatives of duty, which tell us what we must do, as distinct from what it would be good to do but not wrong not to do, function so as to prohibit behavior that is intolerable if men are to live together in society. [3] This may explain the origin and continued existence of the present division between acts of duty and acts of charity. Moral attitudes are shaped by the needs of society, and no doubt society needs people who will observe the rules that make social existence tolerable. From the point of view of a particular society, it is essential to prevent violations of norms against killing, stealing, and so on. It is quite inessential, however, to help people outside one's own society.

If this is an explanation of our common distinction between duty and supererogation, however, it is not a justification of it. The moral point of view requires us to look beyond the interests of our own society. Previously, as I have already mentioned, this may hardly have been feasible, but it is quite feasible now. From the moral point of view, the prevention of the starvation of millions of people outside our society must be considered at least as pressing as the upholding of property norms within our society.

It has been argued by some writers, among them Sidgwick and Urmson, that we need to have a basic moral code which is not too far beyond the capacities of the ordinary man, for otherwise there will be a general breakdown of compliance with the moral code. Crudely stated, this argument suggests that if we tell people that they ought to refrain from murder and give everything they do not really need to famine relief, they will do neither, whereas if we tell them that they ought to refrain from murder and that it is good to give to famine relief but not wrong not to do so, they will at least refrain from murder. The issue here is: Where should we draw the line between conduct that is required and conduct that is good although not required, so as to get the best possible result? This would seem to be an empirical question, although a very difficult one. One objection to the Sidgwick-Urmson line of argument is that it takes insufficient account of the effect that moral standards can have on the decisions we make. Given a society in which a wealthy man who gives 5 percent of his income to famine relief is regarded as most generous, it is not surprising that a proposal that we all ought to give away half our incomes will be thought to be absurdly unrealistic. In a society which held that no man should have more than enough while others have less than they need, such a proposal might seem narrow-minded. What it is possible for a man to do and what he is likely to do are both, I think, very greatly influenced by what people around him are doing and expecting him to do. In any case, the possibility that by spreading the idea that we ought to be doing very much more than we are to relieve famine we shall bring about a general breakdown of moral behavior seems remote. If the stakes are an end to widespread starvation, it is worth the risk. Finally, it should be emphasized that these considerations are relevant only to the issue of what we should require from others, and not to what we ourselves ought to do.

The second objection to my attack on the present distinction between duty and charity is one which has from time to time been made against utilitarianism. It follows from some forms of utilitarian theory that we all ought, morally, to be working full time to increase the balance of happiness over misery. The position I have taken here would not lead to this conclusion in all circumstances, for if there were no bad occurrences that we could prevent without sacrificing something of comparable moral importance, my argument would have no application. Given the present conditions in many parts of the world, however, it does follow from my argument that we ought, morally, to be working full time to relieve great suffering of the sort that occurs as a result of famine or other disasters. Of course, mitigating circumstances can be adduced - for instance, that if we wear ourselves out through overwork, we shall be less effective than we would otherwise have been. Nevertheless, when all considerations of this sort have been taken into account, the conclusion remains: we ought to be preventing as much suffering as we can without sacrificing something else of comparable moral importance. This conclusion is one which we may be reluctant to face. I cannot see, though, why it should be regarded as a criticism of the position for which I have argued, rather than a criticism of our ordinary standards of behavior. Since most people are self-interested to some degree, very few of us are likely to do everything that we ought to do. It would, however, hardly be honest to take this as evidence that it is not the case that we ought to do it.

It may still be thought that my conclusions are so wildly out of line with what everyone else thinks and has always thought that there must be something wrong with the argument somewhere. In order to show that my conclusions, while certainly contrary to contemporary Western moral standards, would not have seemed so extraordinary at other times and in other places, I would like to quote a passage from a writer not normally thought of as a way-out radical, Thomas Aquinas.

Now, according to the natural order instituted by divine providence, material goods are provided for the satisfaction of human needs. Therefore the division and appropriation of property, which proceeds from human law, must not hinder the satisfaction of man's necessity from such goods. Equally, whatever a man has in superabundance is owed, of natural right, to the poor for their sustenance. So Ambrosius says, and it is also to be found in the Decretum Gratiani: "The bread which you withhold belongs to the hungry; the clothing you shut away, to the naked; and the money you bury in the earth is the redemption and freedom of the penniless." [4]

I now want to consider a number of points, more practical than philosophical, which are relevant to the application of the moral conclusion we have reached. These points challenge not the idea that we ought to be doing all we can to prevent starvation, but the idea that giving away a great deal of money is the best means to this end.

It is sometimes said that overseas aid should be a government responsibility, and that therefore one ought not to give to privately run charities. Giving privately, it is said, allows the government and the noncontributing members of society to escape their responsibilities.

This argument seems to assume that the more people there are who give to privately organized famine relief funds, the less likely it is that the government will take over full responsibility for such aid. This assumption is unsupported, and does not strike me as at all plausible. The opposite view - that if no one gives voluntarily, a government will assume that its citizens are uninterested in famine relief and would not wish to be forced into giving aid - seems more plausible. In any case, unless there were a definite probability that by refusing to give one would be helping to bring about massive government assistance, people who do refuse to make voluntary contributions are refusing to prevent a certain amount of suffering without being able to point to any tangible beneficial consequence of their refusal. So the onus of showing how their refusal will bring about government action is on those who refuse to give.

I do not, of course, want to dispute the contention that governments of affluent nations should be giving many times the amount of genuine, no-strings-attached aid that they are giving now. I agree, too, that giving privately is not enough, and that we ought to be campaigning actively for entirely new standards for both public and private contributions to famine relief. Indeed, I would sympathize with someone who thought that campaigning was more important than giving oneself, although I doubt whether preaching what one does not practice would be very effective. Unfortunately, for many people the idea that "it's the government's responsibility" is a reason for not giving which does not appear to entail any political action either.

Another, more serious reason for not giving to famine relief funds is that until there is effective population control, relieving famine merely postpones starvation. If we save the Bengal refugees now, others, perhaps the children of these refugees, will face starvation in a few years' time. In support of this, one may cite the now well-known facts about the population explosion and the relatively limited scope for expanded production.

This point, like the previous one, is an argument against relieving suffering that is happening now, because of a belief about what might happen in the future; it is unlike the previous point in that very good evidence can be adduced in support of this belief about the future. I will not go into the evidence here. I accept that the earth cannot support indefinitely a population rising at the present rate. This certainly poses a problem for anyone who thinks it important to prevent famine. Again, however, one could accept the argument without drawing the conclusion that it absolves one from any obligation to do anything to prevent famine. The conclusion that should be drawn is that the best means of preventing famine, in the long run, is population control. It would then follow from the position reached earlier that one ought to be doing all one can to promote population control (unless one held that all forms of population control were wrong in themselves, or would have significantly bad consequences). Since there are organizations working specifically for population control, one would then support them rather than more orthodox methods of preventing famine.

A third point raised by the conclusion reached earlier relates to the question of just how much we all ought to be giving away. One possibility, which has already been mentioned, is that we ought to give until we reach the level of marginal utility - that is, the level at which, by giving more, I would cause as much suffering to myself or my dependents as I would relieve by my gift. This would mean, of course, that one would reduce oneself to very near the material circumstances of a Bengali refugee. It will be recalled that earlier I put forward both a strong and a moderate version of the principle of preventing bad occurrences. The strong version, which required us to prevent bad things from happening unless in doing so we would be sacrificing something of comparable moral significance, does seem to require reducing ourselves to the level of marginal utility. I should also say that the strong version seems to me to be the correct one. I proposed the more moderate version - that we should prevent bad occurrences unless, to do so, we had to sacrifice something morally significant - only in order to show that, even on this surely undeniable principle, a great change in our way of life is required. On the more moderate principle, it may not follow that we ought to reduce ourselves to the level of marginal utility, for one might hold that to reduce oneself and one's family to this level is to cause something significantly bad to happen. Whether this is so I shall not discuss, since, as I have said, I can see no good reason for holding the moderate version of the principle rather than the strong version. Even if we accepted the principle only in its moderate form, however, it should be clear that we would have to give away enough to ensure that the consumer society, dependent as it is on people spending on trivia rather than giving to famine relief, would slow down and perhaps disappear entirely. There are several reasons why this would be desirable in itself. The value and necessity of economic growth are now being questioned not only by conservationists, but by economists as well. [5] There is no doubt, too, that the consumer society has had a distorting effect on the goals and purposes of its members. Yet looking at the matter purely from the point of view of overseas aid, there must be a limit to the extent to which we should deliberately slow down our economy; for it might be the case that if we gave away, say, 40 percent of our Gross National Product, we would slow down the economy so much that in absolute terms we would be giving less than if we gave 25 percent of the much larger GNP that we would have if we limited our contribution to this smaller percentage.

I mention this only as an indication of the sort of factor that one would have to take into account in working out an ideal. Since Western societies generally consider 1 percent of the GNP an acceptable level for overseas aid, the matter is entirely academic. Nor does it affect the question of how much an individual should give in a society in which very few are giving substantial amounts.



It is sometimes said, though less often now than it used to be, that philosophers have no special role to play in public affairs, since most public issues depend primarily on an assessment of facts. On questions of fact, it is said, philosophers as such have no special expertise, and so it has been possible to engage in philosophy without committing oneself to any position on major public issues. No doubt there are some issues of social policy and foreign policy about which it can truly be said that a really expert assessment of the facts is required before taking sides or acting, but the issue of famine is surely not one of these. The facts about the existence of suffering are beyond dispute. Nor, I think, is it disputed that we can do something about it, either through orthodox methods of famine relief or through population control or both. This is therefore an issue on which philosophers are competent to take a position. The issue is one which faces everyone who has more money than he needs to support himself and his dependents, or who is in a position to take some sort of political action. These categories must include practically every teacher and student of philosophy in the universities of the Western world. If philosophy is to deal with matters that are relevant to both teachers and students, this is an issue that philosophers should discuss.

Discussion, though, is not enough. What is the point of relating philosophy to public (and personal) affairs if we do not take our conclusions seriously? In this instance, taking our conclusion seriously means acting upon it. The philosopher will not find it any easier than anyone else to alter his attitudes and way of life to the extent that, if I am right, is involved in doing everything that we ought to be doing. At the very least, though, one can make a start. The philosopher who does so will have to sacrifice some of the benefits of the consumer society, but he can find compensation in the satisfaction of a way of life in which theory and practice, if not yet in harmony, are at least coming together.

Postscript

The crisis in Bangladesh that spurred me to write the above article is now of historical interest only, but the world food crisis is, if anything, still more serious. The huge grain reserves that were then held by the United States have vanished. Increased oil prices have made both fertilizer and energy more expensive in developing countries, and have made it difficult for them to produce more food. At the same time, their population has continued to grow. Fortunately, as I write now, there is no major famine anywhere in the world; but poor people are still starving in several countries, and malnutrition remains very widespread. The need for assistance is, therefore, just as great as when I first wrote, and we can be sure that without it there will, again, be major famines.

The contrast between poverty and affluence that I wrote about is also as great as it was then. True, the affluent nations have experienced a recession, and are perhaps not as prosperous as they were in 1971. But the poorer nations have suffered as least as much from the recession, in reduced government aid (because if governments decide to reduce expenditure, they regard foreign aid as one of the expendable items, ahead of, for instance, defense or public construction projects) and in increased prices for goods and materials they need to buy. In any case, compared with the difference between the affluent nations and the poor nations, the whole recession was trifling; the poorest in the affluent nations remained incomparably better off than the poorest in the poor nations.

So the case for aid, on both a personal and a governmental level, remains as great now as it was in 1971, and I would not wish to change the basic argument that I put forward then.

There are, however, some matters of emphasis that I might put differently if I were to rewrite the article, and the most important of these concerns the population problem. I still think that, as I wrote then, the view that famine relief merely postpones starvation unless something is done to check population growth is not an argument against aid, it is only an argument against the type of aid that should be given. Those who hold this view have the same obligation to give to prevent starvation as those who do not; the difference is that they regard assisting population control schemes as a more effective way of preventing starvation in the long run. I would now, however, have given greater space to the discussion of the population problem; for I now think that there is a serious case for saying that if a country refuses to take any steps to slow the rate of its population growth, we should not give it aid. This is, of course, a very drastic step to take, and the choice it represents is a horrible choice to have to make; but if, after a dispassionate analysis of all the available information, we come to the conclusion that without population control we will not, in the long run, be able to prevent famine or other catastrophes, then it may be more humane in the long run to aid those countries that are prepared to take strong measures to reduce population growth, and to use our aid policy as a means of pressuring other countries to take similar steps.

It may be objected that such a policy involves an attempt to coerce a sovereign nation. But since we are not under an obligation to give aid unless that aid is likely to be effective in reducing starvation or malnutrition, we are not under an obligation to give aid to countries that make no effort to reduce a rate of population growth that will lead to catastrophe. Since we do not force any nation to accept our aid, simply making it clear that we will not give aid where it is not going to be effective cannot properly be regarded as a form of coercion.

I should also make it clear that the kind of aid that will slow population growth is not just assistance with the setting up of facilities for dispensing contraceptives and performing sterilizations. It is also necessary to create the conditions under which people do not wish to have so many children. This will involve, among other things, providing greater economic security for people, particularly in their old age, so that they do not need the security of a large family to provide for them. Thus, the requirements of aid designed to reduce population growth and aid designed to eliminate starvation are by no means separate; they overlap, and the latter will often be a means to the former. The obligation of the affluent is, I believe, to do both. Fortunately, there are now many people in the foreign aid field, including those in the private agencies, who are aware of this.

One other matter that I should now put forward slightly differently is that my argument does, of course, apply to assistance with development, particularly agricultural development, as well as to direct famine relief. Indeed, I think the former is usually the better long-term investment. Although this was my view when I wrote the article, the fact that I started from a famine situation, where the need was for immediate food, has led some readers to suppose that the argument is only about giving food and not about other types of aid. This is quite mistaken, and my view is that the aid should be of whatever type is most effective.

On a more philosophical level, there has been some discussion of the original article which has been helpful in clarifying the issues and pointing to the areas in which more work on the argument is needed. In particular, as John Arthur has shown in "Rights and the Duty to Bring Aid" (included in this volume), something more needs to be said about the notion of "moral significance." The problem is that to give an account of this notion involves nothing less than a full-fledged ethical theory; and while I am myself inclined toward a utilitarian view, it was my aim in writing "Famine, Affluence, and Morality" to produce an argument which would appeal not only to utilitarians, but also to anyone who accepted the initial premises of the argument, which seemed to me likely to have a very wide acceptance. So I tried to get around the need to produce a complete ethical theory by allowing my readers to fill in their own version - within limits - of what is morally significant, and then see what the moral consequences are. This tactic works reasonably well with those who are prepared to agree that such matters as being fashionably dressed are not really of moral significance; but Arthur is right to say that people could take the opposite view without being obviously irrational. Hence, I do not accept Arthur's claim that the weak principle implies little or no duty of benevolence, for it will imply a significant duty of benevolence for those who admit, as I think most nonphilosophers and even off-guard philosophers will admit, that they spend considerable sums on items that by their own standards are of no moral significance. But I do agree that the weak principle is nonetheless too weak, because it makes it too easy for the duty of benevolence to be avoided.

On the other hand, I think the strong principle will stand, whether the notion of moral significance is developed along utilitarian lines, or once again left to the individual reader's own sincere judgment. In either case, I would argue against Arthur's view that we are morally entitled to give greater weight to our own interests and purposes simply because they are our own. This view seems to me contrary to the idea, now widely shared by moral philosophers, that some element of impartiality or universalizability is inherent in the very notion of a moral judgment. (For a discussion of the different formulations of this idea, and an indication of the extent to which they are in agreement, see R. M. Hare, "Rules of War and Moral Reasoning," Philosophy & Public Affairs vol. 1, no. 2, 1972.) Granted, in normal circumstances, it may be better for everyone if we recognize that each of us will be primarily responsible for running our own lives and only secondarily responsible for others. This, however, is not a moral ultimate, but a secondary principle that derives from consideration of how a society may best order its affairs, given the limits of altruism in human beings. Such secondary principles are, I think, swept aside by the extreme evil of people starving to death.


Tyle ja,
pozdrawiam i zapraszam do przeczytania powyższego artylułu wszystkich, którzy weszli na tę stronę "Zwierzobójstwa",
niech pokój i spokój będą waszymi towarzyszami dziś,
Jakub


Pt cze 01, 2007 14:04

Dołączył(a): Pn cze 05, 2006 19:58
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Chrze


Pt cze 01, 2007 14:48
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Dołączył(a): Pn cze 05, 2006 19:58
Posty: 27
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Ponieważ chrześcijaństwo to wiele różnych odłamów, uściślijmy, że w zabijanie zwierząt na pożywienie i jedzenie mięsa nie jest grzechem w świetle nauczania Kościoła Katolickiego.
Z czego wynika, że nie jest to zło - ponownie: wg nauki Kościoła Katolickiego. Oczywiście może być to zło, gdy wychodzi się z innych etyk niż katolicka.
[/b]


Pt cze 01, 2007 14:57
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Krzysztofie, nigdzie nie pisałem, że według KK jest to grzech, ale że grzechem to być może. Podobnie, jak zabijanie nie jest grzechem, ale grzechem być może. Na przykład zabijając kogoś w samoobronie nie popełniamy grzechu, ale zabijając kogoś by ukraść mu portfel już tak. Podobnie z jedzeniem mięsa, nie chodzi o to, że samo w sobie jest zawsze złe [bo tak upolowanie niedźwiedzia w wypadku zagrożenia życia, jak i zjedzenie ludzkiego mięsa przy zagrożeniu śmierci głodowej złe nie jest], ale że złe jest w określonych okolicznościach.

Co więcej, wszystko zależy, od jakiej strony popatrzymy na czyn i co nazwiemy wewnątrzną celowością czynu [finis operis]. Dla mięsożerców nie ma w tym nic złego, bo w jedzeniu mięsa za celowość wewnętrzną uznają zaspokojenie głodu i tak na to patrzą. Dla mnie jedzenie mięsa to coś więcej, niż tylko efekt końcowy, w postaci schabowego na talerzu. To również czyny, których celowość wewnętrzna jest zła, bo w sposób konieczny związana z cierpieniem i zabieraniem życia niewinnym istotom. I dlatego, patrząc z szerszej perspektywy, widzę w jedzeniu mięsa zło.

Pozdrawiam,
Jakub


Pt cze 01, 2007 16:08

Dołączył(a): Śr maja 09, 2007 7:24
Posty: 4028
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KrzysztofK napisał(a):
Z czego wynika, że nie jest to zło - ponownie: wg nauki Kościoła Katolickiego.

Chętnie bym polecił wszystkim dostojnikom kościelnym formułującym etykę Kościoła Katolickiego, aby każdy z nich wziął sobie prosiaczka i zaczął go hodować na mięso, ale w międzyczasie sam go karmił, wychodził z nim na spacery, głaskał i się z nim bawił. A potem żeby wziął w ręce siekierę czy jakiś obuch i spróbował zabić tą - już wtedy - świnię, patrząc jej w oczy.


Pt cze 01, 2007 16:22
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Dołączył(a): Cz sty 05, 2006 12:24
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Jakub, mam wrażenie, że gdy tylko przeczytałeś o tym, że Singer dekonstruuje człowieka postanowiłeś nie czytać dalej tylko się oburzyć i stwierdzić, że atakuję go personalnie. Przeczytaj dalszą część wywodu i zauważ, że dotyczyła ona poglądów Singera, a nie oceny jego jako człowieka. Zarzutu o to, że robię z niego mordercę, nigdzie nie podałem. Natomiast to, że p. Singer popiera legalność zabijania chorych noworodków jest faktem i sam niejednokrotnie o tym wspominał. Skoro prezentujesz jego poglądy jako pełne wrażliwości dla zwierząt to warto też przypomnieć jaką rolę w tym wszystkim pełni człowiek. Problem z Singerem polega właśnie na tym, że jego filozofia nie jest tak jak twierdzisz tylko apoteozą i wrażliwością dla zwierząt, ale również wiąże się z zasadniczą dekonstrukcją antropologiczną (ważne jest prawidłowe zrozumienie tego terminu nie w kategoriach personalnego ataku, ale oceny filozoficznej) polegającą na uznaniu, że człowiekowi nie przysługują żadne prawa wyższe od praw zwierząt, czemu towarzyszy uznanie dla darwinizmu społecznego i scjentyzmu oraz odrzucenie klasycznej personalistycznej antropologii poprzez oddzielenie pojęcia człowieka od osoby, która ma mieć ponadgatunkowy charakter. To ile pieniędzy przeznacza na lewicowe organizacje charytatywne nie jest argumentem w dyskusji, bo pieniądze dawane jednym nie tłumaczą podważania godności drugich (noworodków, czy ludzi ciężko chorych umysłowo). A ja nie dokonuję analizy personalnej (do czego starasz się mnie skłonić odniesieniami do rzekomej wrażliwości społecznej Singera), ale o poglądach i konsekwencjach tych poglądów na godność każdego człowieka. Proponuję więc skupić się na jego poglądach i je poddać ocenie.

Wklejasz teksty, ale nie odnosisz się do poglądów Singera nt. choćby wartości życia noworodków, czy niepełnosprawnych mentalnie. Dlatego ja też może podam artykuł, który w kontekście jego kariery naukowej, zawiera w sobie cytaty z zainteresowanego i ocenę jego poglądów antropologicznych.

Cały tekst jest istotny, ale pozwoliłem sobie wytłuścić fragmenty, które uznałem za najważniejsze:


Professor Death will fit right in at Princeton
DON FEDER

UNINTENDED IRONIES ABOUNDED LAST WEEK. Bill Clinton (can you believe it?) proclaimed it "National Character Counts Week." Ginger Spice was designated a U.N. Goodwill Ambassador. Can she spell U.N.?

If that weren't enough, there's the ongoing controversy over Peter Singer's appointment to the Ira W. DeCamp Chair of Bioethics at Princeton University's Center for Human Values.

Appointing the Australian philosopher to a center for human values is like giving Serbian strongman Slobodan Milosovic a brotherhood award.

The author of Animal Liberation and Practical Ethics (Mengele would have found them efficacious), Singer's perspective is uniformly anti-man --- pigs and monkeys have rights, handicapped babies do not.

His views on eliminating the disabled have led to protests wherever he's spoken in Europe.

When the prof was invited to address a Swedish book fair last year, Nazi-hunter Simon Wiesenthal wrote to the organizers, "A professor of morals ... who justifies the right to kill handicapped newborns ... is in my opinion unacceptable for representation at your level."

In the 1970s, as the leading theoretician of animal rights, Singer coined the term "speciesism" for anyone so narrow-minded as to, "allow the interest of his species to override the greater interest of members of other species" -- an evil akin to racism.

"How dare we regard ourselves as superior to furred and feathered creatures?" the professor demanded. "Adult chimpanzees, dogs, pigs and members of many other species far surpass the brain-damaged infant in their ability to relate to others, act independently, be self-aware, and in any other capacity that could be said to give value to life."

In 1994, Singer initiated a petition for a United Nations Declaration of Great Apes. "The great apes need respect. This recognizes them as nonhuman persons who are not property but individuals in their own right."

In Practical Ethics, Singer makes a lethal distinction between "humans" and "persons."

"That a being is a human being, in the sense of a member of species Homo Sapiens, is not relevant to the wrongness of killing it,"
the academic explains. "It is, rather, characteristics like rationality, autonomy and self-consciousness that make a difference."

Ergo: "Killing a defective infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Sometimes it is not wrong at all." You can see why he's so popular with advocates for the disabled.

Singer isn't just talking about spina bifida babies -- which would be bad enough -- but, among the examples he offers, hemophiliac newborns whose parents don't want them and who can't be placed for adoption.

In fact, though he rarely admits it, his "ethics" would allow infanticide for almost any reason. How many 1-year-olds are rational, autonomous and self-conscious? Singer, "No infant, defective or not, has a strong claim to life as a person."

Likewise the comatose, terminally ill, dying, etc. Ending their miserable "non-person" existences is now permissible, the professor argues, because, "many of our considered moral intuitions are formed for selfish reasons or for religious reasons which were once strong but are now outdated."

Presumably, one must be a bioethicist to see selfishness in parents who would spare their disabled child or in children who won't pull the plug on parents on life support.

The two halves of Singer's philosophy (animal rights and the denial of rights to human "non-persons") are symmetrical -- fewer people, more room for animals. As Los Angeles talkshow host Dennis Prager puts it, "Those who refuse to sacrifice animals for people will end up sacrificing people for animals." Singer proves Prager's thesis.

Justin Harmon, Princeton's director of communications, defends Singer as "a first-rate scholar who will help the scholarly debate on these issues." Besides, "It's not the university's position to make people comfortable," the Princeton flak sniffs. " Really? Then why do most Ivy League schools have speech codes?

Is Harmon suggesting that Princeton will soon be appointing a raft of professors who will challenge us from the right -- academics who question the dogma that homosexuality is innate, right-to-lifers, immigration skeptics and the like?

Perish the thought. In academia, intellectual challenge is only allowed from the left.

Singer, who will take up his post next year, should fit right in on the American college scene. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he ended up as the president of Princeton. At which point, handicapped students would be well advised to sleep with their lights on.



A co do chrześcijaństwa to ty mi podajesz cytat z teologa, a ja ci podaję cytat z Biblii. Różnica jest taka, że teologiczne interpretacje są różne, a tekst biblijny pozostaje niezmienny. Cały ST pełny jest nakazów do składania ofiary Bogu ze zwierząt (głównie baranków) a szczegółowe przepisy dotyczące jedzenia (choćby zawarte w Księdze Powtórzonego Prawa) nie wspominają ani słowem o zakazie jedzenia każdego mięsa, jedynie dokonując jego rozróżnienia na koszerne i nie. Podaj mi więc cytat z Biblii, w którym Bóg zakazuje jedzenia jakiegokolwiek mięsa. Gdyby to był rzeczywiście, tak jak twierdzisz bezwzględny Holocaust to Bóg musiałby o tym wspomnieć. Na pewno nie jest tym wspomnieniem zachęta do jedzenia roślin z Księgi Rodzaju. Ja też mogę zachęcać do jedzenia warzyw, ale jest ogromna przepaść między taką zachętą, a nazwaniem tych co lubią sobie zjeść szynkę beneficjentami Holocaustu.

Piszesz też, że człowiek jest wyjątkowy, ale "nic z tego nie wynika", a raczej tylko większa odpowiedzialność. Otóż jeśli człowiek jest wyjątkowy to naturalne jest, że nie tylko ma być bardziej odpowiedzialny (z czym się zgadzam), ale również posiada więcej praw i większą godność. Taka jest naturalna konsekwencja wyjątkowej pozycji w świecie. To, że istnieją inne podmioty nie oznacza, że wszystkie posiadają równą godność.

Zencognito napisał(a):
Chętnie bym polecił wszystkim dostojnikom kościelnym formułującym etykę Kościoła Katolickiego, aby każdy z nich wziął sobie prosiaczka i zaczął go hodować na mięso, ale w międzyczasie sam go karmił, wychodził z nim na spacery, głaskał i się z nim bawił. A potem żeby wziął w ręce siekierę czy jakiś obuch i spróbował zabić tą - już wtedy - świnię, patrząc jej w oczy.


Czy jeśli jesz kanapkę z pasztetem to uważasz się za beneficjenta Holocaustu?

_________________
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Pt cze 01, 2007 16:52
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