Quantcast
Wątki bez odpowiedzi | Aktywne wątki Teraz jest So sie 23, 2025 22:04



Odpowiedz w wątku  [ Posty: 24 ]  Przejdź na stronę Poprzednia strona  1, 2
 Dlaczego wierzycie? 
Autor Wiadomość
Avatar użytkownika

Dołączył(a): So maja 26, 2007 12:59
Posty: 197
Post 
Chociażby dlatego, że naukowo dowiedziono, że Ziemia istnieje od 5 mld lat (bodajże ;)).


Wt cze 05, 2007 21:56
Zobacz profil
Post 
Cytuj:
Nieuprawnione jest wnioskowanie, że jeśli zegarek musiał zostać stworzony przez zegarmistrza, to wszechświat przez jakiegoś stworzyciela. Kiedy znajdujemy na plaży zegarek, możemy przypuszczać, że stworzył go zegarmistrz, bo widzieliśmy setki zegarków powstałych w ten sposób i żadnego, który zaistniałby w inny sposób. Ile widzieliśmy powstań wszechświata, żeby wnioskować o tym, jak powstał ten nasz? W jaki sposób chcesz tu wysnuć analogię?

Choć pewnie wiesz to doskonale, właśnie w klasyczny sposób obaliłeś dowód Paleya. :biggrin: [/quote]


Wt cze 05, 2007 22:29

Dołączył(a): Cz wrz 21, 2006 18:43
Posty: 923
Post 
JakubN napisał(a):
Choć pewnie wiesz to doskonale, właśnie w klasyczny sposób obaliłeś dowód Paleya. :biggrin:


Nie wiedziałem, że on się jakoś nazywał ;)

_________________
Obrazek

gg 3287237


Wt cze 05, 2007 23:07
Zobacz profil
Post 
Jak najbardziej. :D Oto on, Williama Paleya argument w całej okazałości:

The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy napisał(a):
c. Paley's Watchmaker Argument


Though often confused with the argument from simple analogy, William Paley's watchmaker argument is a more sophisticated design argument that attempts to avoid Hume's objection to the analogy between worlds and artifacts. Instead of simply asserting a similarity between the material world and some human artifact, Paley's argument proceeds by identifying what he takes to be a reliable indicator of intelligent design:
[S]uppose I found a watch upon the ground, and it should be inquired how the watch happened to be in that place, I should hardly think … that, for anything I knew, the watch might have always been there. Yet why should not this answer serve for the watch as well as for [a] stone [that happened to be lying on the ground]?… For this reason, and for no other; viz., that, if the different parts had been differently shaped from what they are, if a different size from what they are, or placed after any other manner, or in any order than that in which they are placed, either no motion at all would have been carried on in the machine, or none which would have answered the use that is now served by it (Paley, 1).
There are thus two features of a watch that reliably indicate that it is the result of an intelligent design. First, it performs some function that an intelligent agent would regard as valuable; the fact that the watch performs the function of keeping time is something that has value to an intelligent agent. Second, the watch could not perform this function if its parts and mechanisms were differently sized or arranged; the fact that the ability of a watch to keep time depends on the precise shape, size, and arrangement of its parts suggests that the watch has these characteristics because some intelligent agency designed it to these specifications. Taken together, these two characteristics endow the watch with a functional complexity that reliably distinguishes objects that have intelligent designers from objects that do not.

Paley then goes on to argue that the material universe exhibits the same kind of functional complexity as a watch:
Every indicator of contrivance, every manifestation of design, which existed in the watch, exists in the works of nature; with the difference, on the side of nature, of being greater and more, and that in a degree which exceeds all computation. I mean that the contrivances of nature surpass the contrivances of art, in the complexity, subtilty, and curiosity of the mechanism; and still more, if possible, do they go beyond them in number and variety; yet in a multitude of cases, are not less evidently mechanical, not less evidently contrivances, not less evidently accommodated to their end, or suited to their office, than are the most perfect productions of human ingenuity (Paley, 13).
Since the works of nature possess functional complexity, a reliable indicator of intelligent design, we can justifiably conclude that these works were created by an intelligent agent who designed them to instantiate this property.

Paley's watchmaker argument is clearly not vulnerable to Hume’s criticism that the works of nature and human artifacts are too dissimilar to infer that they are like effects having like causes. Paley's argument, unlike arguments from analogy, does not depend on premise asserting a general resemblance between the objects of comparison. What matters for Paley's argument is that works of nature and human artifacts have a particular property that reliably indicates design. Regardless of how dissimilar any particular natural object might otherwise be from a watch, both objects exhibit the sort of functional complexity that warrants an inference that it was made by an intelligent designer.

Paley's version of the argument, however, is generally thought to have been refuted by Darwin’s competing explanation for complex organisms. In The Origin of the Species, Darwin argued that more complex biological organisms evolved gradually over millions of years from simpler organisms through a process of natural selection. As Julian Huxley describes the logic of this process:
The evolutionary process results immediately and automatically from the basic property of living matter - that of self-copying, but with occasional errors. Self-copying leads to multiplication and competition; the errors in self-copying are what we call mutations, and mutations will inevitably confer different degrees of biological advantage or disadvantage on their possessors. The consequence will be differential reproduction down the generations - in other words, natural selection (Huxley 1953, 4).
Over time, the replication of genetic material in an organism results in mutations that give rise to new traits in the organism's offspring. Sometimes these new traits are so unfavorable to a being’s survival prospects that beings with the traits die off; but sometimes these new traits enable the possessors to survive conditions that kill off beings without them. If the trait is sufficiently favorable, only members of the species with the trait will survive. By this natural process, functionally complex organisms gradually evolve over millions of years from primordially simple organisms.

Contemporary biologist Richard Dawkins uses a programming problem to show that the logic of the process renders the Darwinian explanation significantly more probable than the design explanation. Dawkins considers two ways in which one might program a computer to generate the following sequence of characters: METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL. The first program randomly producing a new 28-character sequence each time it is run; since the program starts over each time, it incorporates a "single-step selection process." The probability of randomly generating the target sequence on any given try is 2728 (i.e., 27 characters selected for each of the 28 positions in the sequence) - which amounts to about 1 in (10,000 x 1,000,0006). While a computer running eternally would eventually produce the sequence, Dawkins estimates that it would take 1,000,0005 years — which is 1,000,0003 years longer than the universe has existed. As is readily evident, a program that selects numbers by means of such a "single-step selection mechanism" has a very low probability of reaching the target.

The second program incorporates a "cumulative-step selection mechanism." It begins by randomly generating a 28-character sequence of letters and spaces and then "breeds" from this sequence in the following way. For a specified period of time, it generates copies of itself; most of the copies perfectly replicate the sequence, but some copies have errors (or mutations). At the end of this period, it compares all of the sequences with the target sequence METHINKS IT IS LIKE A WEASEL and keeps the sequence that most closely resembles it. For example, a sequence that has an E in the second place more closely resembles a sequence that is exactly like the first except that it has a Q in the second place. It then begins breeding from this new sequence in exactly the same way. Unlike the first program which starts afresh with each try, the second program builds on previous steps, getting successively closer to the program as it breeds from the sequence closest to the target. This feature of the program increases the probability of reaching the sequence to such an extent that a computer running this program hit the target sequence after 43 generations, which took about half-an-hour.

The problem with Paley's watchmaker argument, as Dawkins explains it, is that it falsely assumes that all of the other possible competing explanations are sufficiently improbable to warrant an inference of design. While this might be true of explanations that rely entirely on random single-step selection mechanisms, this is not true of Darwinian explanations. As is readily evident from Huxley's description of the process, Darwinian evolution is a cumulative-step selection method that closely resembles in general structure the second computer program. The result is that the probability of evolving functionally complex organisms capable of surviving a wide variety of conditions is increased to such an extent that it exceeds the probability of the design explanation.


Wt cze 05, 2007 23:13

Dołączył(a): Pn maja 21, 2007 11:35
Posty: 3
Post 
Świat nie istnieje od zawsze - zjwisko entropii jest tego potwierdzeniem
Sam fakt umierania jakiejkolwiek tkanki jest potwierdzeniem nie - wieczności świata.


Śr cze 06, 2007 7:54
Zobacz profil
Post 
A przecież nie ma konieczności przyjmowania wieczności Wszechświata. Koncepcja Wszechświata oscylującego rozwiązuje ten problem - Wszechświat jest tam zarazm wieczny i czasowy.


Śr cze 06, 2007 8:54

Dołączył(a): Cz cze 09, 2005 16:37
Posty: 10694
Post 
JakubN napisał(a):
A przecież nie ma konieczności przyjmowania wieczności Wszechświata. Koncepcja Wszechświata oscylującego rozwiązuje ten problem - Wszechświat jest tam zarazm wieczny i czasowy.


Tylko co z entropią? Od pewnego momentu zaczyna stopniowo maleć? Są jakieś podstawy dla takiego przypuszczenia?


Śr cze 06, 2007 9:57
Zobacz profil

Dołączył(a): Cz wrz 21, 2006 18:43
Posty: 923
Post 
Są nawet fajniejsze teorie. Np. http://everythingforever.com/hawking.htm

Według Hawkinga, o ile w czasie rzeczywistym wszechświat miał początek w osobliwości te paręnaście miliardów lat temu, to w czasie urojonym początku nie ma. Wszechświat jest samowystarczalny, po prostu istnieje.

Czym jest czas rzeczywisty i urojony, oraz czemu tak naprawdę ich nazwy są mylące (czas rzeczywisty jest naszym złudzeniem, a urojony tym "prawdziwym", według tej teorii), długo by tłumaczyć. W naszej dyskusji istotne jest jednak to, że istnieje fascynująca hipoteza wedle której wszechświat trwa "od zawsze", a obserwowane przemijanie jest spowodowany sposobem, w jaki my odbieramy upływ czasu.

Czy ci z Was, którzy bez mrugnięcia okiem akceptują wieczne (ponadczasowe) trwanie Boga, są w stanie zaakceptować wieczne i równie ponadczasowe trwanie wszechświata?

_________________
Obrazek

gg 3287237


Śr cze 06, 2007 10:21
Zobacz profil

Dołączył(a): Cz cze 09, 2005 16:37
Posty: 10694
Post 
_Big_Mac_ napisał(a):
Czy ci z Was, którzy bez mrugnięcia okiem akceptują wieczne (ponadczasowe) trwanie Boga, są w stanie zaakceptować wieczne i równie ponadczasowe trwanie wszechświata?


To moja ulubiona teoria :-) Daje ona pole do spekulacji, że któregoś dnia obudzimy się po tej drugiej stronie czasu i też będziemy trwać wiecznie.


Śr cze 06, 2007 11:28
Zobacz profil
Wyświetl posty nie starsze niż:  Sortuj wg  
Odpowiedz w wątku   [ Posty: 24 ]  Przejdź na stronę Poprzednia strona  1, 2

Nie możesz rozpoczynać nowych wątków
Nie możesz odpowiadać w wątkach
Nie możesz edytować swoich postów
Nie możesz usuwać swoich postów
Nie możesz dodawać załączników

Szukaj:
Skocz do:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by Vjacheslav Trushkin for Free Forums/DivisionCore.
Przyjazne użytkownikom polskie wsparcie phpBB3 - phpBB3.PL